Do It Today

Kara Cutruzzula: Hi everyone, I'm
Kara Rizla, and today I am talking

with Michelle Wilin, who is the
author of four books, including

Wine People, released on August 1st.

She's the editor of the Food Writing
Anthology, food and Booze, and the former

executive editor of the Literary Journal,
tin House Michelle is also a freelance

editor and creative writing teacher and
co-run the Madison Writers Studio, which

I was just looking at, and it has this
incredible array of workshops, including

one called Visions and Revisions.

Which is super intriguing.

Michelle, thank you so
much for being here today.

This is so much, so many words, so
many Google docs and drafts I imagine,

and I'm just wondering where are you
and what does today look like for you?

Michelle Wildgen: Well, first
of all, thank you for having me.

so today is a really typical day
in that I'm wearing about six

hats at once and trying to move
back and forth between them.

so I'm thinking about trying to write some
articles and get ideas for publicizing

wine people for when it comes out.

I'm putting together.

An event pairing scientists and writers
in sort of a speed dating research,

uh, event that I'm, getting together.

I'm prepping for a class that's coming up.

and yeah, then I'm thinking about whether
I can get started on a new book because

it's a good idea sometimes to have your
attention somewhat on something new so

you're not just completely freaking out
about the one that's about to arrive.

Kara Cutruzzula: Oh, yes,
I, I know that feeling.

you know, there's certain things you can
control in the pre-publication process

and many things that you can't, so it's
nice to be in a generative phase too.

Well, that sounds like at
least six hats, maybe 16.

How do you plan or compartmentalize,
those things as you move through the day?

Michelle Wildgen: I feel like I should
probably do more compartmentalizing

or, or scheduling it out.

but I find that I usually start
my day with the administrative

tasks that are kind of easy.

Um, it always helps me
ease in and I do that too.

When I'm in a writing phase.

I will usually give myself these
really basic, prompts to start with.

And it might even be that I go
back and I proofread, pages that

I, might not even keep, but it
helps kinda get the wheels turning.

then a lot of times I will try and do
creative stuff in the morning after that.

And then I use lunch as a, a good
break to, make myself happy by looking

forward to food that I'm going to eat.

'cause, you know, my,
my world is ruled by it.

then try and dig in again to
something that maybe is creative in

a different way, like the editorial
work and the teaching work after that.

Kara Cutruzzula: you mentioned that
you were prepping for a workshop

so what, does that look like?

You've been running the writer's
studio for 10 years, is that right?

Michelle Wildgen: Yeah, we're celebrating
our 10th anniversary this fall.

It becomes this, place where I can
actually be with writers in a room

and it keeps me connected to thinking
about writing in a different way,

And it helps me as an editor as
well, it So the classes I'm prepping

for right now, um, one is a novel
revision class that I'm gonna be

teaching at Aspen Words next week.

And for that I'm finishing reading
the sixth novel manuscript.

Um, and I'll be, you know, thinking
about all the little things that I wanna

talk about with everybody and, you know,
what feedback I wanna give individually.

Then the other one I'm prepping for
is the class you mentioned earlier,

which is Visions and Revisions, which
is this very cool class, where the

writers come in and they spend the
first six months, generating new drafts

and then they switch teachers and
they move over to a different teacher.

And then with that new teacher, they
revise at least two of the pieces that

they wrote in the first six months.

everybody gets to see how each other
have revised the, the work they

saw in early drafts or, see what
they've done and get to discuss why

did they do it and how did it work.

Mm-hmm.

Kara Cutruzzula: That sounds incredible.

Like a sort of long-term relationship
with a class and with teachers as

opposed to a sort of drop in for
four weeks, it's super generative

and then it's, what's next?

You know?

And it sounds like you were switching
into that editing and engaging and,

and revising brain so seamlessly,
which, sounds very appealing.

And,

you wrote a piece for Tenhouse, which
I really loved about editing and being

edited something that you often tell
writers, As you're reading, a comment

might be, well, here's how this felt
to me, and was that your intention?

Which I wrote it down and I have to
remember for future pieces that I edit,

because it's such a gentle and helpful
way of editing someone's work without

being overly prescriptive how long
did it take you to sort of hone your

editing style and the actual language
that you use when engaging with writers?

It's, it's such a sensitive process.

Michelle Wildgen: Yeah, it, you know,
it's taken a while and I feel like

it's, it's ongoing because I know
when I first started editing, I was a

lot younger and I wasn't too certain
of myself and I felt like the writer

would not feel that I had given them
my all unless I really got in there

and, you know, tore the thing apart.

And, uh, I discovered that people
don't necessarily feel, you know, that

that is a pleasure to receive that

kind of attention.

Yeah.

And I had to learn sort of how to
deal with it and how to feel out

how different writers wanna be.

Because some writers, of course are
like, I don't need the gentleness.

I don't even want it.

I want you to get right in
there and tell me what's what.

And other writers, are the opposite.

And I myself am different you know,
different ways at different times.

I happened upon that particular thing of
just saying, here's how I'm getting this.

I think by happenstance or by sort of
realizing that there were better ways, for

me to express it and I'm sure by having
other editors talk to me in that way.

and just finding that really helpful.

my hot take on Prescriptiveness is that
I have actually become kind of a fan of

it in the teaching format, in in editing.

I might not do it so much, but I find
it really easy for all of us in a

workshop setting to diagnose a problem.

The struggle with writing and
revising is you have to figure out

how are you gonna fix that problem?

Like what is really causing the
slowness in a particular passage?

Or if we're not connecting with
a character, like why is that?

so I actually will like to offer.

Suggestions about, well, you could
do this, you could do that with a

really clear, caveat that the writer
never has to take my suggestions.

What I want them to take is the thought
process, and they can get practice doing

that for each other, and then it makes it
easier for them to do it for themselves.

So I've come around completely and I end
up, you know, just my hot take is like,

no, I'm, I'm all in on prescriptiveness.

Just knowing that we never
make you do anything.

This is your piece and you decide
how to apply all of this feedback.

Kara Cutruzzula: That's so good.

And it's the, big revisions, that I
feel like are often so challenging to

writers and in any form of writing,
short stories or books or musicals or

a long form journalistic style piece.

so easy to sort of get
caught up in the line edits.

you know, I can tweak word choice
and, and smooth out sentences and

then forget that, there's a giant
missing puzzle piece in this, work.

And so I'm curious when applied to
your own projects, we could take

wine people, for example, how many.

Drafts do you think you went through and
what did that revision process look like?

Michelle Wildgen: the first few drafts
were probably not as many drafts as

I have done in the past, because.

I mostly knew what I wanted to do with
these characters, and I've hopefully

gotten better over the years at.

Creating a first draft that
is not as far off the mark as

they have been in the past.

'cause I'm often somebody who has to
discover through writing what my story is.

But I have gotten a little better at
giving myself story generating situations

and paying attention to the right things.

Whereas before, I think I would
sometimes just be like, oh, you

know, that's an interesting idea.

Now I'm gonna write about an ice cream
stand, and I do that for a chapter and

you know, then you just have to cut it
because you didn't discover the thing.

my big failing in that regard
is, That I will often really like

the sentences but they have to
actually contribute to the story.

And so, it's too easy for me to be
like, Ooh, look at that pretty sentence.

I'm just gonna keep on looking at it.

And then you forget exactly as you
said that the whole scene in which

that sentence resides doesn't actually
have anything to do with the story.

So with when people.

The really big changes that happened with
it, was that somewhat late in the game?

An editor gave me a pretty transformative
note, which was, She suggested that

we move these characters who in the,
earlier draft were kind of closer to

the beginnings of their careers, and
she said, make them further along

in their careers so that when the
succession plot happens, which is kind

of what insights the whole book, they
actually have a shot at the prize.

I was at first just like,
oh no, I don't wanna do that

because I was tired, you know?

And I didn't, I'm like everybody else, I'm
like, I'm so tired, please let me stop.

and I knew that it was gonna be not
necessarily the hugest revision,

but it wasn't the kind of revision
that you could do by just going

through and changing a few sentences.

You know, it's an elemental
change to the situation.

And it was gonna be a blank page revision.

And I have long known that that
can be a very smart way to revise

and have told my students like,
you should really consider it.

And they would all give me exactly
the look that I was giving to my

editor when she suggested this for
me, which luckily she couldn't see.

which is the look that
says, I don't wanna do that.

Please don't make me do that.

But what made me finally do it
was to realize it would be easier

to revise with a blank page.

And you're not throwing out
everything that came before it.

You're actually like, you know, looking
at it and it's on the second of two

screens, or it's on a printed page, but
you know, you just aren't trying to fit

a new story into the old existing forms.

And it was very freeing
once I made myself do it.

And it had the added benefit of, you
know, now when I suggest to my students

or to my clients that they should try
the, the blank page for, you know,

certain circumstances, I get to say,
and I promise you I've actually done it.

And there are times when it
truly is easier than trying

to do what you've been doing.

Kara Cutruzzula: And are we talking,
completely fresh document and you are

typing from the beginning of the story
and while looking at it in another

window where you're just like, I'm
going through and sort of filtering

the old story through this new,

lens.

Michelle Wildgen: Exactly.

um, and I didn't have to
do it for the entire story.

It was mainly, but it was a
significant portion of it.

It was probably the
first two thirds I think.

and some of that changed actual
scenes and it changed some of

the plot, but it provided such
a useful, Kind of focal point.

Um, and it gave me something so
much clearer to be focusing on.

once I got over the hump of making myself
do it, it actually went pretty swimmingly.

'cause you know, by then I knew these
people so well and I knew all of this

so well that it, it actually wasn't as
bad as I thought it was going to be.

Kara Cutruzzula: Yeah.

Honestly, that sounds so freeing too.

we can so often find ourselves down
these multiple rabbit holes of, okay,

I'm gonna shift these three paragraphs
and these three pages and swap these

things, and it, it actually just kind
of, Unfurls the thread in our mind of

like, the story that we're telling.

I just, I really wanna use
this strategy on something

when I'm forced into a corner,

Michelle Wildgen: Right.

Yeah, because you

won't do it

before that,

Kara Cutruzzula: No, of course not.

well, you mentioned another
part of your day is looking at

things to do, before wine people.

I'm curious, because you've published so
many books before, what are some things

that you've done pre-publication that
you definitely wanna repeat and some

things that you're like, yeah, no, that
is not getting my time, this time around.

Michelle Wildgen: The things that I always
wanna repeat or build on is to just do

more of personal outreach kind of stuff.

You know, more of just like going to
all of your fellow writer people and

anybody who you just hope caress and
say, you know, this is what I'm doing.

And, I love the fact that
readings nowadays are more often a

conversation with like a local writer.

And so I'm doing a lot of that
kind of thing and I think that

actually pays off, you know?

and the other thing too
is trying to think of.

Articles to pitch and places to reach out
to so that your name is kind of in the

ether about the time that that comes out.

I think the thing that I do less of is
thinking, well, I should go give readings

anywhere and everywhere, no matter
whether I know people there or not, just

because, um, I find that, you know, the
world is big and it's really busy and

if you don't have people there or they
don't have, um, like a really great.

Reading series or something like that,
then it's just hard to convince people

that they should come and see you.

So I, I've gotten a little bit more
careful about thinking about where to go.

I mean, I love giving readings.

I'll go wherever if I think that
there is a, place for me there.

but I've just have found that, you know,
maybe I have to do more setup to make sure

that there's like a real, audience there.

Kara Cutruzzula: You wrote
this other piece about you, I.

Started a no Reading
Writers group, which I love.

it's a homework list, group where you
talk about, writing, editing, publishing,

but you're not actually reading
each other's work or critiquing it.

And I'm just wondering, does that group
still play a role in your life and,

what you've sort of gained from a group
that is structured in that specific way?

Michelle Wildgen: So that was an idea
from Chloe Benjamin who wrote The

Immortal and we did it for a bit, but
the pandemic kind of made it hard.

And actually she is finding a
new way to start it up the idea

is to have a few more people.

'cause we kept it really
intimate for that first one.

And what that meant was that if,
you know, one or two people couldn't

come, then it was sort of, you
know, hard to get a, a quorum.

So she's gonna make it
bigger and keep it casual.

And I love this because as I said in
that article when she said, you know,

you don't have to write anything,
and I said, good, because I refuse

to, because I was so, I was so tired.

I was like, I categorically refuse
to even try and write for this.

But if we can meet and talk
about everything surrounding

it, I would love to.

so that I think works really, really well.

And it sort of depends on, you know,
where you are in projects and where

you are in your writing career.

I.

I think all of the people she's talking
to feel pretty confident and have built

up our people that we go to for our reads.

And we have the people that we impose
ourselves on and and do the same for them.

And so what we need is often
not necessarily a read from

four different people at once.

Um, which doesn't mean we never will,
like there are times when I absolutely

need that, but I just like this idea a
lot because I think it's just doable.

Kara Cutruzzula: uh, one line
from that piece that stuck out

to me was, that you said you're a
humorless marette about deadlines.

And I know that was sort of meant
to be funny, but That's just

something I love to talk about, why
deadlines are so important to you.

What is your relationship with a deadline?

Michelle Wildgen: I'm really, I really
am a humorist Martin when it comes to a

deadline that I have, like, especially
one that I've agreed to, you know,

it's, I, I can count on one hand, the
number of times that I have gone back

to a client and said I might need.

An extra day or two because I
just really, I don't like that.

And I also think I have that sense
that once you open the door, what if

I suddenly become a person who just
doesn't care about deadlines and you

know, and I think most writers need even
a self-imposed deadline or something that

is ever so slightly external and really
there's no teeth to it, but we need

it in order to say you've gotta do it.

but when it comes to the workshop
setting or a writing group setting,

I discovered when I started
teaching that you could have.

All of these people who are,
very successful, they do plenty

of stuff in their lives, you
know, they can meet deadlines.

And the moment one person says, oops,
didn't get it done, gonna send it to you

a little bit later, it touches off this
chain reaction where suddenly nobody

thinks they have to meet the deadline.

then your teacher's like, oh, okay, so
somebody just decided not to deliver work.

So I guess we have a shorter class,
so you, you're really requiring.

people to provide a significant portion
of the work you're gonna discuss.

And if they don't, it throws it
all into chaos and it suddenly

makes it like it doesn't matter.

And so I just was shocked to discover that
that had such a big effect, and that's

why I became such a humorless smart net
about deadlines, because I was like,

you, you, people have driven me to it.

That's what happened here.

Kara Cutruzzula: The domino effect really.

Got you.

You mentioned lunch is a very big part of
your life, food and wine, obviously very

big part of the books that you publish.

so what's for lunch is the first
question, and then also I'm curious about

wine people because it's a story of a
friendship that travels from France,

Germany, Italy, California wine country.

Did you do any field trips?

Michelle Wildgen: Of course, you
know, you gotta do a field trip.

Um, so lunch today, I'm not sure exactly
what it will be, but I did bake some

bread today, so I think it will probably
involve a bunch of bread as soon as it

cools down and maybe some cheese, 'cause
a friend of mine brought home, some

kind of lovely cheese from Amsterdam.

So I'll, I'll add that in.

we do a c s A, so I have a bunch of
vegetables that just need to be used.

So that's often lunch for me when
I haven't thought it through very

much is like a pile of vegetables
and then some kind of protein and

some sort of bread and, and it all
works out pretty well actually.

Kara Cutruzzula: It is so wholesome.

That

Michelle Wildgen: Isn't it?

I know, right?

It's, it sounds so lovely.

I really do like, I'm one of those weirdos
who really looks forward to the, break

in my day, whether I look forward to
like my breakfast or my lunch, and it

just gives me something to shoot for.

So I like it.

but with the field trips for wine people,
one of the field trips that was really

fun that I did was out to the central
coast of California because I have a

good friend who lives in San Luis Obispo,
which is not too far from wine country.

There.

I and another friend who I used to work
with, um, at a restaurant, and she did

go into the wine industry and worked
for an importer for a number of years.

Went out there together and we did
this sort of mini version of what the

characters go through, which is, you know,
we probably visited four wineries in one

day then, you know, came home afterward.

And this is.

Minuscule compared to what an
actual professional will do.

But it gave me a little bit of that
sense of like, I, you have to spit

the wine, even though it felt weird
to me and disrespectful, it became

clear to me, like, I was like, I will
be incapacitated, so I have to, we

drank red wine all day because that's
sort of what the area was known for.

And so by the end of the day, I.

You're desperate for something different.

And somebody poured me like a
Pinot Grigio, and I've never cared

about Pinot Grigio in my life.

And I've never had one more
juicy and zesty and citrusy

and delicious than this one.

whether it was because I'd been
drinking something else all day and I

needed something different or because
it's really a delicious wine, it's

probably just a really good wine.

So that was really wonderful because I got
just a little hint of what this was like

and I got to see a different landscape.

and then when I was in Italy a few
years ago with several friends, one

of those friends is uh, a wine store
owner and she had set up a couple

of visits to places in the market.

the Italian places in the novel
are drawn from these wineries that

we visited while we were there.

Kara Cutruzzula: are you furiously
taking notes in between, tastings

and, and experiencing things?

Or do you sort of come back and
digest everything and, of incorporate

it into your writing from there?

Michelle Wildgen: I usually just digest.

Um, the one difference is that if I'm
interviewing somebody and I did a ton

of interviewing people for this novel,
I have learned, that I'd rather just

record it and then talk to people,

because it just frees me up so much more.

And I don't like, you know, looking away
from somebody constantly and writing

stuff without making eye contact.

And so once I realize that, that's
just the best way to do it, and

our iPhones make it so easy.

I found that that was much more helpful
to me and things still stick in my head.

I might jot down something here and there,
but for the most part, I was taking a lot

of photographs, because I wanted to be
able to call out that landscape again.

or there was this really very cool thing
where we, we happened to be at a winery

when the mobile bottling truck arrived.

we watched this bottling truck can like
trundling up the hillside and set up

and start bottling and then, you know,
I don't think we saw them actually

leave, but it was really fascinating.

So I have a couple of
videos of that that I took.

there is something about getting
the visual that is really helpful

to me and returning to it.

Kara Cutruzzula: Not to jump ahead to
your next book, but I am so curious

because you mentioned that this might
be a part of your day thinking about.

Topics or, book ideas
for, future projects.

How do you approach that?

you know, saying, I wanna write another
book, such a big, task, a big project.

But are you looking at what's sort
of drawing your interest right now,

what you have sort of been navigating
towards over the last few years?

how does that Play a part of your life.

Michelle Wildgen: Yeah, it's different
this time because, last fall I started.

This position as a writer in residence
at, a part of uw that's called the

Wisconsin Institutes for Discovery.

And it's an interdisciplinary organization
on campus It's all these scientists

working in anything from like, genetics
to, you know, the microbiomes to virtual

environments, to visual perception.

It's fascinating.

And so part of my job when I
went there was to say, look, I, I

don't have an idea specifically.

I would be here finishing one project and
looking around to figure out what my next

one is gonna be, and that out really well.

Because, what they want you to do
is basically just be in the mix.

Be talking to these scientists
and finding out about what they

do, and see what grabs you.

One of the things that really grabbed me
from that was a focus on like wellness.

And I began thinking about, cause
I wanted to be able to put things

in opposition to each other.

There's a really wonderful writer named
Antonia Nelson who has talked about

how helpful it is to have opposing
forces in your novel, in your fiction.

And so I started thinking,
well, wellbeing, is actually a

scientific pursuit where, you know,
neurologists and psychiatrists or

whatever are really studying what's
happening in the brain when we are

content and how do we get there.

and I started thinking, well,
what if I can compare that to

wellness, which is the industry
where it can be so much snake oil?

that started to get me thinking.

So I'm trying to build out.

What I wanna do with that.

That's where I really am gonna benefit
and have benefited from talking to

other writers about just sort of
working through what's the situation

that's going to catch the gears on
the story and make it move forward.

If I can give one person, you know, or
one group of people who is the snake

oil people and the other ones who are
the real scientists, and how can I

put them in a position where they're
gonna cause problems for each other?

Kara Cutruzzula: and we so often sort
of take it for granted, like that I'm

going to tell someone an idea and see
where they perk up or where they check

out or where they have questions.

And that just sounds like such a
collaborative and exciting way to generate

your own enthusiasm as you, go forward.

Michelle Wildgen: one of the
things that has happened over the

years, like the more freelance
editorial work and teaching I do is.

You get to just get so many different
ideas in your head and so many

different ways of approaching a story.

so I felt like I needed somebody
to help me filter a little bit

and, and just to think about like,
what do I actually wanna do here?

What would be interesting to me?

And, and how am I gonna do this?

And luckily, I know a lot of really
wonderful teachers and writers who

are good at helping you ask the
necessary questions to get started.

So like I have, I have my ideas
and I have some pages and.

I need to do more of the, okay.

You're just gonna have
to do the part you hate.

Like I'm somebody who loves to revise
and finds the writing heart, so I'm

just gonna have to give myself little
prompts to make myself keep going.

Kara Cutruzzula: this idea of,
prompts or organizing principles.

Sort of brings me to my last question,
which is, Do you have a tool that.

You use to organize either your day or
your writing life, or your editing life

that you just could not live without.

Michelle Wildgen: I have two, and
they're not really even tools.

I mean, well one is literally I will
keep a notepad and I write things down

and I cross them off like you know
the things I'm going to do because

there's something about that act.

Looking at it, writing it,
that helps me organize my head.

and then I I do two things on my laptop,
which is one, anything that I am in

the process of doing, it's just sitting
there on my desktop, not in a folder.

It's just there.

So I can't lose it.

And I know that it has to get done.

but I also, I do something that I
think you're really not supposed

to do, which is I use my email.

As like an organizing tool.

So I keep all of these many
emails in different folders and

it just makes it easy for me.

'cause everything is
conducted over email nowadays.

You know, that's really where
I, I have to go for most things.

Um, so I use that as my backup filing
system and I'm pretty sure that, you

know, anybody who hears this will be
like, you absolutely should not do that.

Kara Cutruzzula: So is that
like, conversations clients and

drafts or like your own personal
writing is in your email too?

Michelle Wildgen: It's both, certainly
like the conversations that you

have about you know, you're working
with a client and what are their

questions and what have you agreed on.

And my classes, I have different
folders for my classes because

we do a lot over email.

and then I'll email myself
little reminders about what do I

want to be writing about today?

Or, you know, what's my
next prompt for myself?

That can be very useful that way,

Kara Cutruzzula: I love this.

I have not actually met someone who
uses email in this specific way, so

Michelle Wildgen: think.

'cause it's

a bad idea.

I think

Kara Cutruzzula: no,

Michelle Wildgen: why, like you may find,

Kara Cutruzzula: it works for you.

I do have to ask though,
what's for dinner?

Because I feel like food is, it's
the bread and butter of, of your

life.

So do you have a dinner plan yet?

Michelle Wildgen: I don't have a
dinner plan yet, but I found myself

thinking today that I feel like I've
got this yen from like homemade pasta

and maybe I want something with tomato
sauce, but I don't want it to be like

a heavy tomato sauce, you know, because
it's, it's summer and you're not in

the mood for something long-simmered.

Si so I'm trying to think about
whether I wanna do a nice,

light, summery version of that.

And I find pasta is the answer
to most of my questions.

So that's almost always where I go.

Kara Cutruzzula: That's so perfect.

Well, thank you so much, Michelle.

best of luck with the publication
of, of Wine People can't

wait to see what comes next.

Michelle Wildgen: Thank
you so much for having me.

This was a lot of fun.